Yes, I know I Talk to Myself, But I'm Trying to Cut Down

. . .OK, I thought that Danielle made 2 really great points. But they're in the comments section, rather than "wide-release".

To give them their day in the sun, here they are:

On Clod's post from 6/27, danielle rose said:

I believe I was supposed to have commented on this by 8 p.m. yesterday . . . but as is typical, I'm late for everything.

Anyway, here goes:

I am conflicted over my determination regarding the movie. I felt it left a lot out that was essential to understanding the plot - but then, I had already read the book, and so my opinion is therefore skewed.

My nieces-to-be and I all watched the movie for the first time together. The one who hadn't read the book thoroughly enjoyed the movie. Katie and I, who had both read the book, were more judgmental. We didn't walk away with the warm gushy feeling we had after reading the book. I think that's what we were expecting.

I watched it again with my boyfriend.
He felt it dragged on and on.
Second time around for me, and I had to agree.
Maybe it was something we ate that night. ..

I do agree that the emotion and imagery is missing in the movie, and perhaps it was because I was looking forward to that the most that I was jaded by the movie. The other thing I wanted to see more of was the kimonos. I expected Hollywood - a flashy, gratuitous display of expensive costume and jewelry, essentially exactly what you see from geisha in Kyoto. However, the kimonos definitely took the backburner to . .. I'm not sure what. Not the emotion that shines so clearly through in the book.

Don't get me wrong, I am NOT all for verbatim retellings of the book when it comes to the movie version. But it is obvious that I missed the aspect of the book that the movie tried to run with. Perhaps it was because I was so consumed by the emotion and visual in the book...

About my post from 6/28, she said:

Well, at least I'm on time with this comment : )

I agree about the "tinny" references to wood and water. I think that they were really so important to Sayuri's life, that the movie should either include them, and the references, or perhaps leave them out all together?

There was definitely no sense that film Chiyo ever thought she would be adopted, but I am not really sure that was an essential point for moving the movie's plot forward - as you say, there are other emotional factors that did that. What you don't get, however, is a sense of Chiyo's youthful intelligence, . . .

I agree that you do feel for Chiyo when she is separated from Satsu at the Nitta Okiya (this was one of my favorite, although sad, parts - and yes, I did want to scream with Chiyo too!). I also think that (for the movie) the scene strengthens the bond between Chiyo and Auntie - after all, Auntie caused her and her sister to be separated, but she did CHOOSE Chiyo. This is important, because I don't think the strength of her relationship with Auntie is as well defined in the later scenes of Chiyo's youth.

To Which Clo Replied:

I guess my issue was more along with the lines of what Danielle touched on. I missed the child-like thought process. The reason I mentioned that opening scene of the book vs the movie was because that scene in the book was the first significant part where I felt/read the childhood innocence and I felt the impact of Chiyo's feeling of betrayal.

OK, now I feel better. . .and less like I'm talking to myself.

I'm inclined to agree that, yes, I was a smidge disappointed by the omission of some of my favorite scenes, including those with the artist Uchida Kosabura. . . and all those kimono(!). But those omissions are also what I find fascinating.

I find the transpositions of events fascinating, the compacting of characters (i.e. - why have both Mr. Itchoda and Mr. Bekku? They're so minor in terms of character-development that we don't notice the omission of Itchoda in the film, regardless of his, or another dresser's, importance in the day-to-day life of a geisha, especially one as highly regarded as Mameha). . .probably because I've become intrigued by other peoples' interpretations of things I enjoyed as much as they did.

If this film were another genre, I might describe it as a form of "fanboy" love-letter to the source material, but we have another site to do that. Regardless of what was missed, I think the filmmakers genuinely love the source material, which is a mixed blessing.

Genuinely loving your source material makes creating your interpretation difficult. If I were to make a movie of this novel, I'd call Liza Dalby first for accuracy. . .and then it would probably become a miniseries, because of all the things that we learn, yet don't learn, in the text. . .and also in the spaces between, like the Jewish tradition of midrash (for a good example of this, see The Red Tent by Anita Diamant).

Do we fill in more of our own blanks by reading? Yes.
Does viewing a film based on a novel with which we connected so deeply sometimes detract from the enjoyment of the film, the novel or both? Maybe. It really does depend upon the source material, the filmmakers and, of course, our own interpretations and attitudes in viewing the works independently, interdependently and, of course, as reflections of each other.

Let's see if we can take this anywhere in the next couple of days before we have to wrap this up and move to another book.

Looking forward to reading more from all of you,
Lizzy

Clod -

Thanks for posting and welcome back from Hades.

As I get older, I find that I no longer want an "exact" translation from page-to-screen in movie versions of films.

I love the novel for the novel's sake, and the film for the film's sake, but I feel that they can be companion pieces.

The compacting of the story was useful in some respects, mostly in the "my butt didn't go numb" category, and it did strike me as rather "tinny" how the references to water and wood were used in the film. Sakamoto Chiyo grew up in a world dominated by water - the seaside town, daughter of a fisherman and, our most striking comment, her sea-gray eyes - but that's only very briefly touched upon in the film. Starting it at the point of the departure, and removing the segment with Mr. Tanaka's family (and Chiyo's first glimpse of a geisha, no matter how provincial) was interesting, but we don't really get the sense that the film-Chiyo ever believed she was going to be adopted by Mr. Tanaka when her mother died. I'm not sure if that's truly important to the story; we do experience a worse loss because she and Satsu are torn from their parents, and almost shoved out of their "tipsy house" by their father, and they cling to each other.

What I do think is that this clinging together does make their separation at the Nitta okiya more heartbreaking, especially since the way Auntie (portrayed by the always fun to watch Tsai Chin) selects Chiyo over Satsu, rather than the decision having been pre-determined between Mother and Mr. Bekku. The realization that not only were they torn from their home in Yoroido but they were also to be separated, well, it makes us want to scream with Chiyo.

Or at least, that's the way I feel about it.

Thoughts?

- Lizzy -

Discussion Part 2 - Clo the Critic. ;o)

My turn!

As Lizzy knows, I normally do not like the movie version of the books. However, ironically, that does not necessarily mean I do not look forward for movies that are based on a novel. Strange, right? This is what held true for Memoirs.

I love this story. And although I do find that some elements were left out or misrepresented from it when you compare it to the book, it was still a quite enjoyable movie. For example, the opening in the movie misleads what happened vs. what the little girl thought. She never was lead to believe she would be adopted as it happened in the book. The wood and water references were misconstrued too. But, despite all of the differences (which I promise for th sake of brevity, I will not nitpick), the element of the story was still there.

Although I did miss some of the "emotion" and "imagery" that were present in the book, I find the movie does well as a stand-alone, which is what I feel a good rendition should do. You should be able to understand the basics of a good story without the foreknowledge of a book or the history, which I think was accomplished for the most part.

When I saw the movie for the first time with my sister, she did get a little confused with the vocabulary, so it may have been nice for the director to explain a little more about that without directly defining it. But, despite those minor confusions, she enjoyed the movie, and since she had yet to read the book, which shows the movie was well done. And, if interested her in reading the book, which is quite complimentary to the filmmaker.

All in all, although the movie wasn't a verbatim telling of the book, I think both are well done and hold their own.

That's all for now... Comments?

Discussion Time! (Memoirs of a Geisha - Day 1)

All -

Hello, welcome and I hope this goes well.

(Yeah, OK, I broke my own rule and I'm posting late.)

As a reminder, our first "assignment" on Memoirs of a Geisha (Arthur Golden) was the one touchstone story that (a) we had all already read or bought to re-read and (b) I am fascinated by the way stories I love to read are adapted for the screen, whether on TV or on film. Many of my favorite books have been made into truly wretched films and mini-series, while others have been done wonderfully.

I'm often of the opinion that I'd rather read the book version than see the film version of a "best-seller" unless I've received a non-Oprah recommendation from a friend (thanks Clodia!), in which case, I may actually give the hardcover version a shot.

Now, as I re-read the paperback and re-viewed the DVD, I really focused on why I felt both the novel and the film "worked" as both stand-alone and, oddly enough, as companion works of literature.

For example, I feel that you don't need to have read the novel to have enjoyed the film, but some of the "cut-scenes", which would have made the film butt-numbing, integrate into the whole work, when considered as both film and novel. Expository framing tricks, like translator Jakob Haarhuis, could have worked on film, but I think the brief voiceovers by Sayuri are really what we've all entered the theaters (or rented/bought the DVD) to "experience". . .especially, as in Jakob-san's introduction, he's been listening to a recording of Sayuri's voice as he worked through his translation.

The other big thing I found in the epilogue/dedication/acknowledgements in the novel, and really felt that the DVD extras had complimented, was the degree to which the facts of the daily life of a geisha had been studied, fact-checked and edited while Mr. Golden was writing his novel. . .and while Mr. Marshall was making his film.

I have so much else to say, but I'm starting to get sleepy and distracted, so I'll sign off until tomorrow!

- Lizzy -

Last Free-Post Before Discussion #1

Hello All!

Today is T-minus 1 day until the official "kick-off" of our discussion of Memoirs of a Geisha.

Having just finished watching the film version, while considering the ways in which the story was compacted and altered in order to bring it to life on the screen. . .without my butt going numb. . .I really do want to focus on that. But I'll post a more complete thought tomorrow.

In addition, because my enjoyment of both tellings of Memoirs has not diminished, it might inspire my viewing of Rob Marshall's translation of the incredibly minimalist stage show Chicago to the silver screen; I'm mad about the stage show, having seen it twice, but have not yet seen the film version.

Hope you enjoy it!

- Lizzy

Countdown - Less Than 1 Week

All -

Please remember that our first "assignment" postings will be due in less than 1 week.

In my head, following the format of Slate's Book Club feature would be ideal, but it may not always be suited to multi-blogger blogs such as ours.

In the meantime, please see the latest link I've added to the sidebar: LanguageLog, a linguistic discussion site I read about in this morning's NY Times.

Best,
Liz

My Own Personal Opinion

Ok, I know there has been a lot of hype over James Frey. Personally, I don't care if his work is fiction. I hated A Million Little Pieces. HATED! It was just too much. I read it right before the controversy started and even then I was like, "Nope, didn't happen, he's exaggerating, ok that's just false and SHUT UP ALREADY!" Anyways, I don't fault you if you liked it, but seriously, if people really let a guy who looked like he did in the opening segment of the book, we have serious problems.

There's my two cents.

Countdown to Discussion #1 - 2 Weeks

While we count down our days until we post our first discussion topic on Memoirs of a Geisha, I thought I would also add my latest two "just reads" to my list of books to visit:

Angela's Ashes by Frank McCourt
Running With Scissors by Augusten Burroughs

Both are memoirs, in a manner of speaking, and both will make you laugh and cry.

The film version of the Burroughs book is in production and due out later in 2006 or possibly in 2007, since you can never tell with film people, while the film version of McCourt's book came out in 1999. And I think I caught it a few times on HBO, but never at the beginning.

At any rate, they're good reads and I recommend them.